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The Icynene Insulation System®
how does it perform in detering rodents and pests
I have to insulate a crawl space and its tough to get to
the last thing I need is making a home for a lonely mouse or some ants
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The Icynene Insulation System®
Whew! Neutocrete is some expensive stuff. It is concrete mixed with vermiculite for light weight and so it won't flow. For 2" thick, $9 per square foot to start, plus cleanup, sealing, drain, etc. I can build a garage for less than that. The salesman even said you have to be in a lot of pain to justify it. I am going to look into shotcrete or gunite? like they reline silos and pools with. anybody know how much that runs. He also does the icynene for $3 sq ft and 2 lb. closed cell for $3 sq ft, and polyurea for $6 sq ft.
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Couple of thoughts and questions or opinions needed. I have been doing as much research on this as I can (when I feel like it) Opinion: First of all talking to a salesman about the pro's and cons of just about any product
is in my opinion "for what it is worth" information. If the product is the only one he installs or sells more than likely you wont hear any of the bad aspects (atleast nothing he could be sued for if he dont disclose it to you). Anything that is still unfounded or proven one way or the other you wont hear about either. (That is why what Denwood just posted makes me a bit weary about this product) (good post denwood!) Not in all cases but I feel most of the time anyways. Also anyone who dont install or profit off anouther type will more than likely have the opposite opinion of a product and push their product instead. That is where places like this provide a great way to get advice. Problem with folks talking good about their system they had installed is that "SOME" folks are not seeing the forrest trhu the trees to be on the nice side. To be on the not so nice side, some folks are just to damm proud to say they paid too much for a system that really is marginal at best. That brings us to the point where we have to ask as many questions as possible and sift thru the answers to find the middle ground to get as close to the truth as possible. I so far have found (in my opinion) that this product should definatley be a possibility. I feel it may have great benifits in the right situation and applications. I also feel there may be places where it is used that would be a non factor.
Tha being said (with no prior experiance with this product)there are a few questions that I feel I can't get the straight skinny on. Maybe it is because the jury is still out on the possible side effects. The scary thing is that once installed it is for all practical purposes,"PERMINANT" and it can have serious consequences.
I am looking for information on ceiling instalations. Particularily in cathedral applications. From what I gather (if the info I am getting is 100% true) this system could be the best way to insulate a cathedral type construction. The old standard of leaving a 1 1/2 air gap between the roof sheathing and the insulation (if this product does what they say it does) is outdated and void with this application? (yes that was a question) What do you guys (especially the ones who have it already) feel about this. The ones that dont have it installed please way in also. I may soon be building and once it goes in the ceiling it will be perminant without ripping off the entire roof! This scares me! If making a solid insulation with this product will not hurt the integrity of the roof then I feel this is far and away the best way to go with cathedrals which all of us know have typically been the worst for energy efficency. With a system like this that may change. So here are a few questions listed that I have. My fear is not with the initial cost of application but the effects it may have on the life of the structure?
1. What do you feel about having no air gap in a cathedral application on the longevity of your roof?
2. If doing a roof with this product and money is a consideration. Since most homes in my area have 2x6 walls, what would you think about having the roof in cathedrals done and then have this product installed in the walls ONLY around window areas and other utility cavities that take up space in a wall?
(I was thinking this would be a great way to cut the cost and achieve the most from this product barring having the whole house done in it.)
We all know we can get great insulation in a open attick type setting and in 6" walls also. The windows areas have always been a problem even when the best care is took in installing fiberglass.
Does anyone know of any unbiased web sites to go to? I still feel the best information would be from honest home owners. Problem is, how long has this application been in use and what will be the lasting effects of this type of instalation say in 20 years? I am really up in the air here but am leaning strongly towards trying it in my cathedrals and just around the window areas and doors(which will be alot) in the new house.
If Murph or anyone in canada is posting and reading this, what is the thinking up by you guys on this? I know you guys get some real HOT summer time days (more hot than many folks can believe) and we all know about the arctic clippers we get from you air mailed to us. Is this product catching on up by you guys?
Thanks alot guys, I know this was long but IMHO having this installed should ne be a knee jerk reaction, the resulting effects could be a disaster if it does not perform the way it is being marketed as.
I appreciate all your responses!
Thanks Tom
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I just (as in the past 3 days) had the biobased (soybean spray agent) version of icynene installed. I installed it in the invented roof application - i.e. the typical cathedreal attic type configuration.
I did this because, as it is now part of the 2004 IEC, it's more energy efficient than the old way, and it eliminated all the deliberate holes/penetrations for conventional venting. I installed temperature sensors under the roofing, under the attic sheathing, and inside the (now conditioned) attic space to see how the unvented roof performs. Some studies indicate that the venting of an attic only lowers the sheathing temperature about 7 degrees in extreme conditions.
Honestly, I think you'll find a pretty significant performance increase - certainly with a cathedreal ceiling application - My roofer said that the 1.5" air gap didn't really work all that well, and that it was better roof wise, if you were really concerned, to lay 2x4 stringers and put down a second layer of OSB for the "cold roof" as is done in some very cold/high snowfall applications.
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you installed the 2x4 stringers to the rafters before they sprayed the insulation?
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Huckmeat
2x4 stringers? WOW people actually do that? Sounds like a heck of an idea but not in my plans. I read the same thing as your roofer told you. Seems it is getting more common all the time and is being approved all over also. I was under the impresion that the air gap was more for the condensation than for cooling ventilation? I am pretty sure I am going to go with some form of this application. With your research you done what did you conclude with the difference between the porous and the more solid form? I understand the solid one is supposed to be more expensive but will not let any movement between.
What made you finally decide on the soybean application?
I sure hope it works out for you and please keep us informed on how it performs!
Thanks
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My installer sprayed the roofline as well. When I questioned him about it for condensation, he explained it like a styrofoam cup...they don't sweat like glass or plastic due to the thermal barrier. I have had no problems with condensation at all. Just a great efficient system all around.
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This is getting more & more confusing. I am going to have my catheadral style attic sprayed very soon, so I need to figure out what is the best thing to do...do I install the stringers with osb or should I not?
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Whoops.. I was in a rush, so let me explain more. My TP membership also just expired, so I can only read a bit of the threads.
The 2x4 stringers allow an air gap so that your roof stays cold and also so that there is no condensation within the envelope. I Didn't do this, but it is common at the higher elevations here in colorado, around the ski resorts, where OSB might as well be solid gold, since money doesn't matter. 
What I did is really akin to a SIP - I framed my roof with trusses, sheathed it with 3/4" OSB, covered it with a fire deck (1/4" dens deck) and then had a fully adhred EPDM roof membrane installed. I didn't want to spend $1000 in pop up vents to vent this low pitch (1/2:12) roof, plus each of those vents would have a flashing which would eventually fail, causing a leak. (It's a flat roof, so I'm sure it will leak anyway, but you get the idea).
2004 code (actually, an approved ammendment to the 2004 code) allows a building designer/builder to spray a vapor impermable insulation to the underside of the roof decking (so that the insulation is on the top side of the attic, instead of resting on your sheetrock in the floor of the attic). This effectivly moves the condensation point to the inside surface of the insulation, which is now conditioned space, and thus won't condense. In fact, the code requires that enough insulation be applied to keep this inner surface above the condensation point for the area.
In my house, we designed it with a low pitch roof, and 18" heel in the attic trusses. We sprayed in ~10-11 inches, which gives around R40, and leaves the floor of the attic clear for me to snake a TV cable that I forgot or whatever now and then.
Hope this explains more. So far my temperature sensors show the roof sheating underside tracking the exterior temperature by about 2 degrees, while the inside temperature sits at around 60-66. We have radiant heat, so we don't heat much of the air, hence the lower ceiling/attic air temperatures.
I'll try to post more results as I get them, here and to my site.
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Brokenarrow, Just to clarify, just which product is it that you are "wary" of?
Mike.
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